File: What's the Right Minimum Wage.swf-(8.97 MB, 240x160, Other)
[_] Rand Paul 2016 Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)19:05 No.2632489
Marked for deletion (old).
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)19:43 No.2632512
I think he makes good points, but we can't get rid of the minimum wage. The reason we have it is
to avoid the wage-slavery of the 19th and early 20th centuries, and I simply don't believe that,
given the opportunity, corporations would do the right thing by their workers and pay them
properly for their work. Lowering the minimum wage is something I would definitely support,
though.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:09 No.2632531
Let people form proper unions and you don't need minimum wage. We don't have it in Sweden.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:15 No.2632535
>>2632531
How do we ensure that those unions keep themselves productive and not become corrupt cronies
themselves?
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:18 No.2632538
Maybe if people would fucking become self sustainable we wouldn't need so many shit head fucking
jobs.
>AWGs
>Gardening
>Solar panels
These things aren't that expensive when you give it time and patience to save up. The most would
be solar panels and until you get those electricity would be easily covered with a minimum page
part time job. It's fucking retarded that people are still working at age 45+. Fuck off with your
retard shit. Self sustainability and self dependance isn't hard especially when you fucking look
at primitive humans who have been doing it since the beginning. Yes I am very fucking mad
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:18 No.2632539
The whole point of a minimum wage is that your employers can't all-but enslave you, like they do
in China.
In China, sweatshops pay employees exactly enough to have them live on company property and eat
company-provided food, and not enough to be able to live on their own or buy their own food.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT A MINIMUM WAGE IS DESIGNED TO PREVENT
Corporations do NOT look out for your best interests and have to be kept in check. Given the
opportunity to do so, they will always take the most profitable route, which is exactly what the
scenario above describes.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:19 No.2632540
>>2632535
I'm not the most politically involved, but do the unions have any actual power over the members?
Members can just leave the union and make another.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:23 No.2632544
>job
This is where the problem starts. Higher education in America is designed consume your income and
to teach you how to make yourself more valuable to some cunt of a CEO, and less about teaching
you to use your skills to become self-sufficient or your own boss. If you're living on an income
from which you have no potential to gain largely from, you're going about something wrong.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:24 No.2632545
>>2632539
If they don't like it they can quit, no one's holding a gun to their head.
>inb4 they'll starve to death
No, with enough hard work anyone can advance up the ladder in a capitalist system.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:25 No.2632547
>tfw work a shit job for minimum wage
>don't want to quit because I'll have to travel further for the same pay
>almost no tips too
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:26 No.2632550
>>2632535
The corporations can also form something similar to a union.
And all can for a collective agreement.
Here watch some propaganda: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqgMIRF7acw
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:33 No.2632555
>>2632545
They can quit and either make no money, or go to another job that will fuck them in the ass.
If everyone advances up the ladder, what's left at the bottom?
In order to have a proper capitalist system, the bottom should be supported just as much as the
top. That doesn't mean they should be paid equally, but they also shouldn't get shafted six ways
to Sunday.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:34 No.2632558
>>2632545
But this isn't the case because they actually will stave to death. With no welfare systems and a
terrible job market, you HAVE to hang on to your job to live.
That's how they trap you. You become completely dependent on the employer and they make even more
profit by giving you wages that are just enough to be able to buy their food and live on their
property and have them profit off of it.
A minimum wage ensures that you're able to at least survive on your own in society.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:35 No.2632560
>>2632540
>>2632535
the idea of unions to much too
>communism
for americans to even understand
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:39 No.2632562
>>2632538
let me take you off your high horse for a bit and remind that there are a lot of people living in
apartments, thats not somewhere you can just put up solar pannels, not to mention if your like me
and live somewhere where its snowing nearly half the year solar pannels won't make nearly the
same dent in the electric bill, and gardening simply isn't an option for year round food
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:47 No.2632564
>>2632560
As an Ex-UAW member, I can tell you first hand, American needs LESS unions. Seriously. They're
fucking worse than the companies themselves.
Literally, the UAW has had me purposely be out of a job to reach their goals, when I wanted to
work and felt -I- was being treated fairly. But if I DID work, I'd be penalized for doing so. I
actually had to have my Girlfriend at the time support me during that time period, since I wasn't
even allowed to work a different job because "That'd be sending the wrong message". They
LITERALLY called a Wendy's I applied at, and told them that if they hired me, they'd sue the
store.
Seriously, Unions are fucking bullshit. They had good reasoning when they were new, but these
days, they're bloated pieces of crap that need to fucking die.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:48 No.2632566
>>2632512
Minimum wage was actually invented by eugenicists to find the 'unemployable' and enable a
culling; It's sad we never went through with the end result. But also, how can you say you know
that a set per hour price is 'proper pay'? Depending on the person, a corporation may only be
able to pay them $5 an hour based off their productivity; should they be forced to hemorrhage
money in the name of 'proper' pay?
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:49 No.2632568
>>2632562
>What is time and patience
Keep rising
>food
Indoor hydroponics
You should move to more a more habitable part of the planet
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:52 No.2632571
>>2632566
>how can you say that a set hour price is 'proper pay'?
Simple. Enough money to live under a roof with access to water and electricity as well as enough
money to stay fed. That's generally what a country's minimum wage entails. Also, minimum wage
changes depending on the type of labour performed.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:54 No.2632573
... People are still sheepishly listening to Prager University?
Seriosuly, people?
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:55 No.2632575
>>2632564
The problem is that while unions are good in concept, they are generally not much better than not
having one at all. I'm not from the teachers union here, but there was something of a scandal
within my high school my senior year. Needless to say the woman was up to getting fired, and for
good reason too, however because you pay into the union the union helped out. They got her a
lawyer and she won, allowing her to keep her job. This teacher I might add was arguably one of
the worst teachers within the school, to say she was a upstart individual, an actual teacher of
her subject, or simply someone you would want to spend an afternoon with would be much too kind.
But even then it didn't matter, because releasing private information to the public should of
cost her her job, but instead she gets off free thanks to the union.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:56 No.2632578
>>2632539
Honestly I think your scenario exists not because of the nature of corporations but because of
the nature of Chinese.
Chinks are fucking animals.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)20:59 No.2632582
>>2632575
I might add as a consequence to this the school was then unable to hire a new professor,
practically anyone would have filled her shoes better. But instead the kids had to suffer through
it with her, so what it boiled down to was that the people being hurt by this aren't just other
teachers, but the students as well. Nobody except for the teacher and the union stands to benefit
from it. The mere fact that the school, particularly the students, are worse off as a result
indicates to me a serious problem with the teachers union. Of course they don't care though as
they make tons of money off of the teachers who are fearful of losing their jobs because the
entire state is in a state of educational decay, what with constant loss of budget, pay cuts, and
increasing furlough days.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:00 No.2632584
>>2632578
>not because of the nature of corporations
>animals
Capitalism (free market capitalism, at least) is a direct means of social Darwinism. The entire
point is to act like an animal to further your wealth. Intervention and regulation is designed to
prevent this (at its greatest extent) and treat humans with humanity.
I can easily see burgers doing the same thing if given the opportunity. Hell, American
corporations take advantage of it already (see: Apple and Foxconn).
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:04 No.2632588
>>2632578
Companies aren't stupid, they will and really already do exploit the average joe, what makes you
think that it'd be somehow magically different if we dropped minimum wage?
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:05 No.2632589
>>2632571
Incorrect.
Minimum wage does not exist for the average human to be self-sufficient off of. If that were the
case, minimum wage would raise with Tax Increases, commodity market fluctuations, and the cost of
living. It would be set on a city-by-city basis, based on the average cost of a 1-bedroom
apartment, 1 week's worth of food, and the average use of electricity and water by other minimum
wage earners.
Minimum wage is what a law maker feels the average human's time to be worth, while he/she is
making an effort in good faith at a task. Whether it's flipping burgers, stocking shelves, or
anything else. The cost of being "Owned" for an hour.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:07 No.2632591
>>2632582
>entire state
More like the entire country.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:08 No.2632592
>>2632571
But why should corporations be forced to pay that when the input is not equal to that? Is that
not, by definition, improper?
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:10 No.2632595
>>2632591
Pretty much. It's a sad world that we live in where we are more concerned fucking up other
countries than looking internally and fixing what's been long broken.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:11 No.2632598
>>2632582
That doesn't seem like an issue with the union, seems like an issue with whatever tribunal /
court allowed the teacher to keep her job.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:12 No.2632600
>>2632592
Because that create the incentive to further exploit the average worker. I mean honestly, by that
reasoning why should companies adhere to safety codes and standards? Because it's not
economically sound? Well sure it's not, but there is more to the world than just economics. It's
called being humane.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:17 No.2632605
>>2632598
Well I'd agree. Understand though that the union has a LOT of weight that it can throw around. So
it's not at all surprising really that she got away with it.
The fact that they even got involved to begin with is definitely problem. Her guilt was not up to
question, because everyone and their mother already knew she had fucked up royally. The union
does not exist, at least in it's entirety to benefit teachers and by extension students, it's
really just another way to make money. Which is really just another way of calling them a
business and not a union.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:23 No.2632613
>>2632600
If you want to be humane, you can donate to the poor, but is forcing business owners into poverty
by paying workers more than they are worth humane? Is forcibly stealing from one group to
'benefit' another humane?
When people are coerced by armed government agents into your definition of humanity, who is left
that can be described as humane?
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:26 No.2632619
>>2632613
>forcing into poverty
>stealing
nice hyperboles, mate
Business owners aren't forced into poverty, they can simply streamline processes, increase
efficiency or sales, or increase prices.
>donate to the poor
why not prevent the need for donations instead?
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:31 No.2632623
>>2632619
How would it be possible to streamline processes, increase efficiency, oh wait...
We fire them.
So, are you arguing that we should force many low-skilled and inexperienced workers to a lifetime
of unemployment? Also, if prices increased along with the wages, did we change anything, other
than decreasing the value of the dollar and hurting everyone?
Also, how would all of this prevent the 'need' for donations?
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:34 No.2632626
>>2632540
They can get pretty powerful.
At some places the only way to get a job is to be a member of the union. The only way to do this,
is to know a member and they need to vouch for you. This leads to the only way to get a job there
is to be born or married to a union member.
> Make your own
Good luck with that. They will either get you fired or get everyone else to turn on you. You
obviously want break up the union and lessen its power.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:37 No.2632629
>>2632623
>we fire them
No, I mean actually improving production or advertising efficiency.
As far as low-skill workers going into unemployment, that's more or less where we're heading as
far as automation goes. This might be worth a watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU
We'll have to fundamentally change our society away from our current puritan model if we're going
to deal with this in any way, shape or form.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:49 No.2632635
>>2632629
Oh ok, I get a bit where you're coming from. But how can you free up money for better equipment
or advertisement space and design? What happens when the price for these go up, as well as the
price of goods to pay for increasing wages? Have we solved anything?
The answer is no. We can solve this problem, but the answer does not at all relate to raising the
minimum wage.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)21:56 No.2632641
>>2632635
The problem is inflation and the concept of infinite growth. Ideally, prices could remain fixed
and the cost of labour could also remain fixed. This, however, would require that the population
remain fixed and both the means of production and demand remain fixed.
There's no simple answer because, quite frankly, capitalism is a chaotic system.
For a capitalist system to be work, it has to be free. The problem with that is that freedom
doesn't work when there are 7 billion others also trying to be free.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:00 No.2632646
>>2632641
Despite the fact you have failed to address any arguments I have put forward, I'll play your game;
What is your alternative to capitalism? Why do you assume that free market enterprise cannot lead
to infinite growth?
There is an infinite number of space and amount of resources in the universe, why can't we have a
purely capitalistic system of infinite growth?
Previous economists said infinite growth was impossible because they had no idea the possibility
of star travel, let alone free-market driven star travel we have seen with space x.
With what we now know, we also know that there is the possibility for infinite growth. To keep
the minimum wage at 0 would allow for a steady, if not fixed wage, to assist in the infinite
growth of humanity.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:02 No.2632648
>>2632578
Learn your US history. That's exactly what we did back in the industrial revolution days. Company
compounds where poor, unskilled workers lived, worked, got payed, and put that paycheck right
back to the company.
>>2632545
No, with the right skills and training the best of the group will rise up the ladder. Retards
with no skills will never stop being cashiers and fry cooks because they lack the skills to do a
good job better than other people.
Minimum wage is a moot point for people with skills, because they have some level of power in
their negotiations with a company. Low level, unskilled workers have no power because they can be
replaced in an instant by someone else who also needs that income to live. No minimum wage means
more shitty jobs so that more poor people can get poorer and get off welfare. If you're not a
useless piece of garbage lowering the minimum wage will only benefit you.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:19 No.2632665
>>2632623
>increase efficiency
Well, shit. Here we were doing things less efficiently and making less money when such an obvious
solution was right in front of us. I can't believe nobody realized that we could just increase
our efficiency. I mean, the tools and methods and knowledge are all right there. You've solved
all our problems, anon. It's so fucking simple. We just improve efficiency.
>>2632646
>infinite number of space and amount of resources in the universe
There is a finite amount of matter and energy in the universe. Converting any of it to a usable
or preferable form will lessen it. The idea of infinite space is also not confirmed.
There's definitely more than we need right now, but it's not infinite.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:26 No.2632673
>>2632566
see i think 5 bucks is a pretty good min wage. but the person you are responding to is also
right, minimum wage cannot be forgone because it will be abused. besides that. what company
(aside from a starting up company) can't afford 5 bucks an hour, but the owner can't run it.at
that point it's probably better for the whole society that the business die.
on the alternative side of things, min wage here in washington state is like 9.50 an hour and my
groceries bill is starting to be equal to the cost of going to fast food. i would prefer a
healthy diet to a fast food one, but that's the state i live in at the moment. tfw.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:28 No.2632674
He himself says that companies will cut hours to save money. But then he thinks that companies
will pay you the proper amount based on how much you have to offer? No, they're going to pay you
as little as possible to keep you around. We need minimum wage. Not to mention that paying more
to youth will increase spending and support the economy.
sources: a fucking college education
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:29 No.2632675
>>2632665
>still dodging the topic at hand
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:30 No.2632676
>>2632673
>it will be abused
How? If there is a company only willing to pay $1 or $2 an hour, don't work there. They will
either be forced to increase wages or go out of business due to no workers while their potential
employees work for their rival company willing to pay $6.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:32 No.2632679
>>2632676
Other companies will drop their price from $3 to $1.50 because they know that is the highest
around.
Then it gets dropped again from some large financial crisis, and never rises. Rises wages and
prices for goods are a good thing.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:34 No.2632683
>>2632675
>still
I agree with you up until you bring up complete hypotheticals about future space resource
collecting. Keep your facts straight and don't bring future conditions into current issues.
>>2632674
It's almost as if people have the ability to decide how much their time is worth and that they
have to come to a consensus with a company about what that is before they get hired. If a job
doesn't pay you fairly then you can leave and get a new one, provided your skills are as valuable
as you think they are.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:34 No.2632684
>>2632665
>Space
>Finite
Even if that where true, Space is constantly expanding m8, and the amount of matter and energy
expands with it. Otherwise, all of creation would have the same mass as the particle that caused
the big bang.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:36 No.2632688
>>2632679
>Other companies will drop their price from $3 to $1.50 because they know that is the highest
around.
What? You still cannot keep up with demand if you have no employees.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:37 No.2632689
>>2632566
Can you give a source for eugenicists implementing minimum wage?
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:37 No.2632690
>>2632683
>playing semantics
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:40 No.2632694
>>2632679
And then another will bring wages to $2.00 because that's the highest around. And then another
will bring them to $2.50 because that's the highest around. And then we keep doing that until
wages are at the level of worth the employees are at. Companies are not all in one big cartel,
they will compete with one another for benefits.
>>2632684
Hypothetical. And the laws of thermodynamics are pretty clear on whether matter and energy can be
created or destroyed. Stop pulling shit out of your ass.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:41 No.2632695
>>2632646
>you have failed to address any agruments. I meant to say that the problem is in the system being
fundamentally flawed. There is really no correct or incorrect answer because an abstract concept
can be interpreted in a number of ways.
As for infinite growth, I honestly believe that it is reckless. Especially seeing as we currently
lack the means to do anything useful in space.
As well as this, travelling faster than light is outright impossible. We're essentially confined
to our solar system, with the prospect of sending out generation ships to other systems and
forming a fragmented civilisation. When it takes >20 years to send a signal at the speed of
light, and potentially hundreds to actually travel there, there is no viable economic return. We
need to conserve what we have, because it's all that we ever will.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:42 No.2632696
>>2632683
You're simplifying the job search. You have to deal with competition by your peers who are
willing to be paid less than you want. They will take whoever accepts the least pay.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:42 No.2632697
>>2632489
This is stupid fucking bullshit.
This isn't 1922, you don't go down to the local drug store and ask ol' Mr. Palmers for a job,
everything is corporate, and LITERALLY. I AM NOT FUCKING KIDDING YOU. LISTEN TO WHAT THE FUCK I'M
SAYING. Corporations would PHYSICALLY ENSLAVE YOU if they could find a way to do so and get away
with it. They don't give a diseased rat fuck about you. They're not paying attention to your
fucking "job experience". Slavery is a thing. 150 years ago, in the very society you inhabit, it
was totally legal to go down to a used slave dealer and buy a person like a used car. Even if
that's illegal today, the mentality that gave birth to that situation still very much exists.
People are always looking for a way to marginalize other people and save a few cents.
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:42 No.2632698
>>2632695
Everything after the first sentence in that greentext was supposed to be its own paragraph
>> [_] Anonymous 12/17/14(Wed)22:46 No.2632701
>>2632696
That's because a large supply of a certain skill lowers its value. If lots of people can do your
job, then you aren't as valuable as you would be if everyone who could do it was already employed.
In short, if you lack demanded skills, then you aren't worth as much as you think you are and
companies are able to offer you less.
